{"id":4184,"date":"2019-11-23T02:03:25","date_gmt":"2019-11-23T02:03:25","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/www.newearthvillage.com\/spriggs\/?p=4184"},"modified":"2021-01-27T13:35:58","modified_gmt":"2021-01-27T13:35:58","slug":"mostyn-mystery","status":"publish","type":"bc_posts","link":"https:\/\/www.newearthvillage.com\/spriggs\/bc_posts\/mostyn-mystery\/","title":{"rendered":"Mostyn Mystery"},"content":{"rendered":"[et_pb_section bb_built=”1″ inner_width=”auto” inner_max_width=”1139px”][et_pb_row][et_pb_column type=”4_4″][et_pb_text _builder_version=”4.0.6″ text_text_shadow_horizontal_length=”text_text_shadow_style,%91object Object%93″ text_text_shadow_horizontal_length_tablet=”0px” text_text_shadow_vertical_length=”text_text_shadow_style,%91object Object%93″ text_text_shadow_vertical_length_tablet=”0px” text_text_shadow_blur_strength=”text_text_shadow_style,%91object Object%93″ text_text_shadow_blur_strength_tablet=”1px” link_text_shadow_horizontal_length=”link_text_shadow_style,%91object Object%93″ link_text_shadow_horizontal_length_tablet=”0px” link_text_shadow_vertical_length=”link_text_shadow_style,%91object Object%93″ link_text_shadow_vertical_length_tablet=”0px” link_text_shadow_blur_strength=”link_text_shadow_style,%91object Object%93″ link_text_shadow_blur_strength_tablet=”1px” ul_text_shadow_horizontal_length=”ul_text_shadow_style,%91object Object%93″ ul_text_shadow_horizontal_length_tablet=”0px” ul_text_shadow_vertical_length=”ul_text_shadow_style,%91object Object%93″ ul_text_shadow_vertical_length_tablet=”0px” ul_text_shadow_blur_strength=”ul_text_shadow_style,%91object Object%93″ ul_text_shadow_blur_strength_tablet=”1px” ol_text_shadow_horizontal_length=”ol_text_shadow_style,%91object Object%93″ ol_text_shadow_horizontal_length_tablet=”0px” ol_text_shadow_vertical_length=”ol_text_shadow_style,%91object Object%93″ ol_text_shadow_vertical_length_tablet=”0px” ol_text_shadow_blur_strength=”ol_text_shadow_style,%91object Object%93″ ol_text_shadow_blur_strength_tablet=”1px” quote_text_shadow_horizontal_length=”quote_text_shadow_style,%91object Object%93″ quote_text_shadow_horizontal_length_tablet=”0px” quote_text_shadow_vertical_length=”quote_text_shadow_style,%91object Object%93″ quote_text_shadow_vertical_length_tablet=”0px” quote_text_shadow_blur_strength=”quote_text_shadow_style,%91object Object%93″ quote_text_shadow_blur_strength_tablet=”1px” header_text_shadow_horizontal_length=”header_text_shadow_style,%91object Object%93″ header_text_shadow_horizontal_length_tablet=”0px” header_text_shadow_vertical_length=”header_text_shadow_style,%91object Object%93″ header_text_shadow_vertical_length_tablet=”0px” header_text_shadow_blur_strength=”header_text_shadow_style,%91object Object%93″ header_text_shadow_blur_strength_tablet=”1px” header_2_text_shadow_horizontal_length=”header_2_text_shadow_style,%91object Object%93″ header_2_text_shadow_horizontal_length_tablet=”0px” header_2_text_shadow_vertical_length=”header_2_text_shadow_style,%91object Object%93″ header_2_text_shadow_vertical_length_tablet=”0px” header_2_text_shadow_blur_strength=”header_2_text_shadow_style,%91object Object%93″ header_2_text_shadow_blur_strength_tablet=”1px” header_3_text_shadow_horizontal_length=”header_3_text_shadow_style,%91object Object%93″ header_3_text_shadow_horizontal_length_tablet=”0px” header_3_text_shadow_vertical_length=”header_3_text_shadow_style,%91object Object%93″ header_3_text_shadow_vertical_length_tablet=”0px” header_3_text_shadow_blur_strength=”header_3_text_shadow_style,%91object Object%93″ header_3_text_shadow_blur_strength_tablet=”1px” header_4_text_shadow_horizontal_length=”header_4_text_shadow_style,%91object Object%93″ header_4_text_shadow_horizontal_length_tablet=”0px” header_4_text_shadow_vertical_length=”header_4_text_shadow_style,%91object Object%93″ header_4_text_shadow_vertical_length_tablet=”0px” header_4_text_shadow_blur_strength=”header_4_text_shadow_style,%91object Object%93″ header_4_text_shadow_blur_strength_tablet=”1px” header_5_text_shadow_horizontal_length=”header_5_text_shadow_style,%91object Object%93″ header_5_text_shadow_horizontal_length_tablet=”0px” header_5_text_shadow_vertical_length=”header_5_text_shadow_style,%91object Object%93″ header_5_text_shadow_vertical_length_tablet=”0px” header_5_text_shadow_blur_strength=”header_5_text_shadow_style,%91object Object%93″ header_5_text_shadow_blur_strength_tablet=”1px” header_6_text_shadow_horizontal_length=”header_6_text_shadow_style,%91object Object%93″ header_6_text_shadow_horizontal_length_tablet=”0px” header_6_text_shadow_vertical_length=”header_6_text_shadow_style,%91object Object%93″ header_6_text_shadow_vertical_length_tablet=”0px” header_6_text_shadow_blur_strength=”header_6_text_shadow_style,%91object Object%93″ header_6_text_shadow_blur_strength_tablet=”1px” box_shadow_horizontal_tablet=”0px” box_shadow_vertical_tablet=”0px” box_shadow_blur_tablet=”40px” box_shadow_spread_tablet=”0px” z_index_tablet=”500″]\n
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The mysterious Mostyn: A Theory<\/h2>\n
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Peter Bruce<\/span> <<\/span>pkbruce@gmail.com><\/span><\/span> <\/span><\/h3>\n<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<\/tbody>\n<\/table>\n<\/td>\n

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Wed, May 22, 7:54 AM<\/span><\/div>\n<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<\/tbody>\n<\/table>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n\n\n\n
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to Gillian<\/span> <\/span><\/div>\n
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HI Gill,<\/p>\n

It’s 11pm. I’ve been lying awake in bed piecing together bits of my research today into Mostyn. When I googled Mostyn up came a news item on the passing of Lady Mostyn in 2009. She was the last of the North Wales Mostyn family dynasty, which has been based in Flintshire County, Wales for 1100 years. I also note that there is a village of Mostyn in North Wales where the Mostyn family live. I can find no other place called Mostyn which, with its tell-tale ‘y’ says ‘Wales.’\u00a0 Mostyn became a place surname. What peaked my interest in the news piece was reference to one Peter Caldwell, an administrator of the Mostyn Estate Company. Peter gave the eulogy for Lady Mostyn suggesting they had a very close relationship. Is it possible that a Caldwell family has long resided there and has long worked in the employ of the Mostyn family, perhaps for generations? 9There is a theory that Welsh Caldwells are unique to Wales– not related to other Caldwells and that the name comes from caer wyn, a ‘much loved fortified enclosure.’ Today, Caerwyn is a Welsh boys name. If this toponymy is correct, it suggests Caldwells have a long history in Wales).<\/div>\n
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Now let’s go to St Helena. The first Caldwell on St Helena was Lt William Caldwell who died in 1774 at age 34, perhaps by accident or disease. He died before the first Daniel Caldwell (Daniel Richard’s father) was born. In other words, our Caldwells have no blood link to the name Caldwell. William’s wife Elizabeth had 4 or 5 children by another unknown man after William died. There is no record of a marriage so I presume they lived common-law.\u00a0 She would have taken the name Caldwell when she married William so naturally she would name her out-of-wedlock children Caldwell, her married name. Now here’s where one of two theories might apply:<\/div>\n
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Theory One: William Caldwell was one of the Caldwells of Mostyn, i.e. he was Welsh and may have had the middle name Mostyn identifying his family’s place of origin or as a mark of respect for the Mostyn family with whom they held a close bond. Elizabeth in turn named her son ‘Henry Mostyn’ in turn, as a mark of respect\/remembrance for William.\u00a0<\/div>\n
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Theory Two: There is no connection between Peter Caldwell and William Caldwell. But her common-law partner’s surname was Mostyn. Giving Henry the name Mostyn was a mark of respect\/endearment for her partner. The Mostyns may have been a military family. A William Mostyn was a surgeon in the Second India Field Regiment (1850s) and a General Mostyn was celebrated for leading a successful campaign against Malayan rebels in the 1950s.\u00a0<\/div>\n
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Now get this. While I was taking a break from the Mostyn Mystery on my father’s side, I poked around in my mother’s side of the tree. Suddenly, before me, was the name Roger Mostyn Challoner (1493-1550) born guess where — Mostyn, Flintshire, Wales. The Challoners lived there for many generations. I have them back to Y Dai ab Ithel ab Ithel (1380-) born Flintshire Wales. The Challoners and the Mostyns were both upper class families who may have intermarried. It’s getting weird around here.\u00a0<\/div>\n
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Warm regards to you all, Peter<\/div>\n
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PS Could you send us a mailing address for Sheila so we can send her a card? Thanks Gill.<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n
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May 22, 2019<\/p>\n

Hi,<\/p>\n

It is nearly 11pm here now and I\u2019m just reading my emails. Sheila\u2019s friend Bob was Leslie Mostyn Caldwell and \u00a0his father was Herbert Mostyn Caldwell. Herbert was born in1863 and \u00a0I believe he was the only son of Daniel RF to have the name Mostyn and he passed it on to his son. \u00a0( I cannot remember which of the other grandchildren had the name Mostyn) but I thought there were three of them. Why did the name only appear with his eleventh child if it was a family name?<\/p>\n

I think Peter John Raglan Caldwell is still active in North Wales. There is a company address for him<\/p>\n

Cregenan, 22 Dalar Las, Glan Conwy, Colwyn Bay, Conwy LL285LJ. Maybe he could throw some light on any family connection.<\/p>\n

Whose child is the other Mostyn?<\/p>\n

Interesting theories of yours. Weird that your mother\u2019s family had north wales connections too and the name!!!!<\/p>\n

Who was it whose child died in Lancashire. A little girl. She was very young if I remember correctly. The mother was a wife or mistress of one of the sons of RF or was it a grandson, or did the little girl who died have the name Mostyn? I\u2019m rambling now. Time to go to sleep.<\/p>\n

Gill x<\/p>\n<\/div>\n

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May 22, 2019<\/div>\n
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Hi Gill,<\/p>\n

Clearly I was a little bleary-eyed when I wrote to you. I referred to Henry Caldwell when I meant Herbert. And aren’t you smart to remember that there was a third Mostyn. I should say there IS a third Mostyn — Roy Mostyn Caldwell, son of Daniel Augustus Caldwell, my grandmother RoseMary Caldwell’s brother (‘Gus’ was the one who disappeared somewhere in SE Asia. Everyone thought he was dead. Years later he wrote a letter to Rose Mary apologizing for his poor letter-writing and advising her that he had married, lost a child to disease in Canton but had 5 more).<\/div>\n
Anyway, Roy is very much alive in England, likely Surrey\/Essex. Perhaps he would know where the Mostyn comes from. Good thought to contact Peter Caldwell. Thanks for the address.\u00a0<\/div>\n
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Hold on here. My theories are leaking badly. I had it in mind that Mostyn was given to one of Daniel the Elder’s ( DRF’s fathers’s) brothers. In fact, it first appears in DRF’s son Herbert. Right. That does it. No more speculations after 7pm. Better yet: no more speculations. Perhaps the only thing which barely floats here is a possible connection to the Mostyn family, the village of Mostyn and the Caldwells of Mostyn. Chuck the rest. Obviously, a person called Mostyn or the place Mostyn had special meaning to DRF. Possibly Mostyn was a good friend in HK (he does not appear on the jury lists for that period). Anyway, I will keep the matter perking. Thanks for the clarity.<\/div>\n
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Re the little girl who died. It’s not coming to mind. I’m out to get some gardening in. Nice sunny day. Thanks for Sheila’s address. Big hugs to you folks, Peter (and Randi)<\/div>\n<\/div>\n
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\n\t\t\t\t\n\t\t\t\t\n\t\t\t\t\n\t\t\t\t\n\t\t\t\t\n\t\t\t<\/div> The mysterious Mostyn: A Theory \u00a0 \u00a0 Inox x \u00a0 \u00a0 \u00a0 Peter Bruce <pkbruce@gmail.com> Wed, May 22, 7:54 AM \u00a0 \u00a0 \u00a0 to Gillian \u00a0 HI Gill, It’s 11pm. I’ve been lying awake in bed piecing together bits of my research today into Mostyn. When I googled Mostyn up came a news item […]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":0,"parent":0,"menu_order":39,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_stc_notifier_status":"","_stc_notifier_sent_time":"","_stc_notifier_request":false,"_stc_notifier_prevent":false,"_stc_subscriber_keywords":"","_stc_subscriber_search_areas":"","nf_dc_page":"","_et_pb_use_builder":"on","_et_pb_old_content":"","_et_gb_content_width":"","h5ap_radio_sources":[],"cybocfi_hide_featured_image":"","footnotes":"","_wp_rev_ctl_limit":""},"authors":[],"root_bruce":[853],"tags_bruce":[],"history":[],"media_bruce":[],"history_bruce":[],"families_bruce":[],"eras_bruce":[1021],"class_list":["post-4184","bc_posts","type-bc_posts","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","root_bruce-caldwell","eras_bruce-1800-1899"],"acf":[],"jetpack_sharing_enabled":true,"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.newearthvillage.com\/spriggs\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/bc_posts\/4184","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.newearthvillage.com\/spriggs\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/bc_posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.newearthvillage.com\/spriggs\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/bc_posts"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.newearthvillage.com\/spriggs\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/1"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.newearthvillage.com\/spriggs\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=4184"}],"version-history":[{"count":7,"href":"https:\/\/www.newearthvillage.com\/spriggs\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/bc_posts\/4184\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":8100,"href":"https:\/\/www.newearthvillage.com\/spriggs\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/bc_posts\/4184\/revisions\/8100"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.newearthvillage.com\/spriggs\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=4184"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"authors","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.newearthvillage.com\/spriggs\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/authors?post=4184"},{"taxonomy":"root_bruce","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.newearthvillage.com\/spriggs\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/root_bruce?post=4184"},{"taxonomy":"tags_bruce","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.newearthvillage.com\/spriggs\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags_bruce?post=4184"},{"taxonomy":"history","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.newearthvillage.com\/spriggs\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/history?post=4184"},{"taxonomy":"media_bruce","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.newearthvillage.com\/spriggs\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media_bruce?post=4184"},{"taxonomy":"history_bruce","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.newearthvillage.com\/spriggs\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/history_bruce?post=4184"},{"taxonomy":"families_bruce","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.newearthvillage.com\/spriggs\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/families_bruce?post=4184"},{"taxonomy":"eras_bruce","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.newearthvillage.com\/spriggs\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/eras_bruce?post=4184"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}